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After 4.6 upgrade, all new windows appear underneath existing windows
Status:
RESOLVED: FIXED

Comments

Description Grant Edwards 2009-06-18 14:53:57 CEST
After upgrading to 4.6 all new windows (except wireshark
apparently) appear underneath all existing windows.  They
appear at the "bottom" of the stack of "normal" windows. This
occurs on all three of my Gentoo/XFCE-4.6 boxes.  It occurs
with almost every application regardless of whether it's
started directly from a .desktop file, from command line, or
via exo-open.  The only app I've noticed that starts on top is
Wireshark.

Although I've been told on the mailing list "it's only broken
for you", it's also been reported by several others:

http://news.gmane.org/find-root.php?message_id=%3c4A37E889.8020009%40yahoo.de%3e
http://news.gmane.org/find-root.php?message_id=%3c20090617210018.GA19267%40enterprise.localdomain%3e
http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/e/2009/05/01-ubuntu_904_jaunty_xfce_gripes.php

Here's my configuration

Window manager:

  [Style]

           Theme: Galaxy
      Title font: Sans Bold 9
 Title alignment: Center
   Button Layout: <greyed-out>

  [Keyboard]

      <default settings>

  [Focus]

           Focus model: Focus follows mouse
    Delay before focus: <slider at about 10%>
      New window focus: <not checked>
        Raise on focus: <not checked>
    Delay before raise: <slider at about 15%>
        Raise on click: <not checked>

  [Advanced]

     Snap windows to border: <checked>
    Snap windows to windows: <not checked>
                   Distance: <slider at 10%>

       Wrap ... screen edge: <not checked>
   Wrap ... drag off screen: <checked>
            Edge resistance: <slider at 10%>

  Hide content ... resizing: <checked>
    Hide content ... moving: <checked>

        Double click action: Maxmimize window
  
Window manager tweaks:

  [Cycling]

   Skip windows that have skip properties: <checked>
                   Include hidden windows: <checked>
             Cycle through all workspaces: <not checked>
               Draw frame around selected: <checked>

  [Focus]

      Active focus stealing prevention: <not checked>
       Honor standard ICCCM focus hint: <checked>
           When a window raises itself: Do nothing

  [Accessibility]

            Key used to grab and move windows: Alt
            Raise when any mouse button press: <not checked>
                    Hide frame when maximized: <checked>
     Restore orig size of maximized when move: <checked>
      Use edge resistance instead of snapping: <not checked>
                      Notify of urgency/blink: <not checked>
                          Keep urget blinking: <greyed out>

  [Workspaces]

             Use mouse wheel to switch: <checked>
      Remember and recall .. shortcuts: <not checked>
         Wrap depend on desktop layout: <checked>
                  Wrap when first/last: <checked>

  [Placement]

     Minimum size to trigger smart: <slider at 10%>
         By default, place windows: At the center of the screen

  [Compositor]

     Enable display compositing: <not checked>
     <remaining items all greyed>     

There is a work-around using devilspie to place new windows in
a more sane manner (IOW the same as XFCE did before 4.6):

http://news.gmane.org/find-root.php?message_id=%3c4A395B59.6070803%40yahoo.de%3e

In order to head off the usual spate of suggestions involving
giving new windows focus: we don't want new windows to have
focus.  We just want them to appear on top of existing windows
the way they did pre-4.6.

For 20+ years I've run with focus follows mouse, click doesn't
raise window, focus doesn't raise window, new windows don't get
focus.  Though I appreciate the effort to help, I'm not really
interested in hearing about "solutions" involving changing
those settings in order to make my desktop act more like
Microsoft Windows.
Comment 1 Porcelain Mouse 2009-06-19 01:41:09 CEST
Thank you!

I just wanted to say thanks to Grant for reporting this.  I've been looking all over for it.  And, thanks to the Xfce team and Olivier for fixing this in the next release.  (I assume a fix is planned because a "target milestone" is set for this bug.)  I can't wait.

This particular combination of window manager settings is one of the best advantages of Xfce, I think.  Please please don't ever change this behavior (no raise on focus + no new window focus).
Comment 2 Grant Edwards 2009-06-19 02:48:23 CEST
I guess I'd never realized what a small minority I was in
preferring such a configuration.  Apparently none of the
developers or people who've been using 4.6 for the past year
use that configuration -- if they had, they would have known
within about 30 seconds that things had gotten broken. ;)

I'm probably as guilty as anybody when it comes to forgetting
to test use-cases that I don't personally use...
Comment 3 g365885 2009-07-04 16:41:30 CEST
I am having this problem also please fix it.

Thanks.
Comment 4 robin.humble+xfce 2009-07-05 11:17:32 CEST
me too.

however doesn't look like it's going to be fixed?
  http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4795

can I second a vote for this idea from
  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce/2009-February/024786.html
"""
I would suggest to split the "automatically focus new windows" option:

[ ] automatically raise new windows
     [ ] automatically focus new windows
"""

and given that "automatically raise new windows" has been the default in every WM since 1990 it should be the default in xfwm too.
Comment 5 g361519 2009-07-06 16:45:23 CEST
As suggested here: http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi
Comment 6 g361519 2009-07-06 16:47:51 CEST
Sorry, I gave the wrong url, it's http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5525
Comment 7 Grant Edwards 2009-07-07 14:16:57 CEST
(In reply to comment #4)
> me too.
> 
> however doesn't look like it's going to be fixed?
>   http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4795

I'm not sure I conclude that from that discussion, but I'm not
sure I can conclude anything at all from reading that.

> can I second a vote for this idea from
>   http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce/2009-February/024786.html
> """
>
> I would suggest to split the "automatically focus new
> windows" option:
>
> [ ] automatically raise new windows
>      [ ] automatically focus new windows
> """
>
> and given that "automatically raise new windows" has been the
default in every > WM since 1990 it should be the default in
xfwm too.

I know.  The current behavior seems completely bizarre to me,
and I don't understand the justification behind the decision to
make all new windows start on the bottom of the stack.
Comment 8 Grant Edwards 2009-07-08 03:26:35 CEST
(In reply to comment #0)

> There is a work-around using devilspie to place new windows in
> a more sane manner (IOW the same as XFCE did before 4.6):
> 
> http://news.gmane.org/find-root.php?message_id=%3c4A395B59.6070803%40yahoo.de%3e

The work-around isn't quite 100%.  Devilspie doesn't seem to do
do the right thing occasionally when a new window appears
(though I can't figure out how to make it fail).  Devilspie
also just "goes away" regularly and has to be re-started every
day or two. :/
Comment 9 Olivier Fourdan editbugs 2009-07-08 20:54:51 CEST
This a not a bug but a result of a fix for bug #4795. It is also a duplicate of at least bug #4808 and 4965 (and prossibly others)

It makes absolutely no sense to put unfocused windows on top of focused window, so the current behavior is the correct expected behavior and there is no need to change that back.

I would not recommend using devilspie, it's a hack and a source of race conditions with the window manager.

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 4808 ***
Comment 10 Grant Edwards 2009-07-08 21:07:31 CEST
(In reply to comment #9)

> This a not a bug

You are wrong. It is a bug.  The program doesn't behave the way
reasonable users expect it to behave.

> but a result of a fix for bug #4795. It is also a duplicate of
> at least bug #4808 and 4965 (and prossibly others)

Why should I care what it's a result of.  The program stopped
working.

> It makes absolutely no sense to put unfocused windows on top
> of focused window,

You are wrong.  That is exactly the behavior that makes sense.
It's how I've configured things to work for the past 20 years.

What makes you think you get to tell other people what "makes
sense"?

> so the current behavior is the correct expected behavior

No, it is not the correct expected behavior.  The correct
expected behavior is the way the XFCE window manager used to
behave and the way all other window managers I've used for 20
years behaved.

> and there is no need to change that back.

IOW, a great big "F%*k You" to existing users who liked the
previous behavoir.

> I would not recommend using devilspie, it's a hack and a
> source of race conditions with the window manager.

So your recommendation is what?  Use a different window
manager?  Stop using XFCE completely?

You say don't fix the bug because you like the new behavior
better and everybody who liked the old way is just wrong and
has to change to do things your way?

You "don't recommend" the one work-around that does make it
work the right way?

You seem to expect everybody to change to fit the way you want
things to be.  It must be nice to be the most important person
on earth.
Comment 11 Olivier Fourdan editbugs 2009-07-08 21:35:24 CEST
Being aggressive and insulting towards developers in bugzilla will not help your cause, quite the contrary.
Comment 12 Grant Edwards 2009-07-08 21:44:28 CEST
(In reply to comment #11)

> Being aggressive and insulting towards developers in bugzilla will not help
> your cause, quite the contrary.

My "cause" has been ruled "wrong", my complaints invalid, and
I've been told the way I do things "makes no sense".

What is there left to do except express my frustration at
having my opionions insulted and an incompatible change forced
upon me?
Comment 13 netllama 2009-07-09 19:05:52 CEST
I too am afflicted by this bug.  Regardless of whether some feel that this is 'not a bug', changing such basic behavior after many years of doing it in completely the opposite fashion is a huge usability flaw.  At the very least, there should be an obvious, easy to access configuration option that allows those who want the old/legacy behavior to turn it back on.
Comment 14 robin.humble+xfce 2009-07-10 06:44:01 CEST
Is a configuration option to "automatically raise new windows" (but not focus unless they're under the mouse) on the roadmap anywhere? Would it be hard to add?

If it's not planned, then can you please provide a attachment to this bz (or point to the patch from another bz) that reverts the changes of http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4795 ?

I seem to recall in one of the many bz's about this issue (which is a hint that the behaviour change is upsetting a lot of users) that you referred to it as a "simple change" so hopefully it's simple for you to point at the patch/commit/git id/whatever and for us profoundly unhappy users to revert.
it would be most appreciated. Thanks.

BTW, maybe you are interested in scenarios where "automatically raise new windows" is sensible? Probably every netbook and most laptops is the main one - browsers (and other apps) typically run fullscreen, and with current xfwm behaviour each download dialogue, or evince instance, or new window, or ... is always completely hidden behind the browser window. there is no indication anywhere that clicking on a link has done anything at all. this is most frustrating... having windows go (effectively) to /dev/null is most frustrating. this behaviour happens even in the extremely common case of a tiny download dialogue that would not steal focus from anything, but yet it is still placed at the bottom of the stack.

The ideal outcome for this problem is a configuration option:
  [ ] automatically raise new windows
     [ ] automatically focus new windows
but a patch to revert the change would also be acceptable.
Comment 15 Olivier Fourdan editbugs 2009-07-26 14:37:13 CEST
I am really against adding yet another option for that, so better agree on a sensitive behaviour.

What I have now committed in trunk is to place windows behind the focused one only those which have been prevented focus by the window manager.

IE, if focus stealing prevention stop a window from having focus, it will be placed under the focused one. But if you explicitely set now windows not to receive focus, those will be placed on top of the stack as before.

I think this should give enough flexibility and the expected behaviour for every focus model.
Comment 16 Olivier Fourdan editbugs 2009-07-26 14:41:48 CEST
*** Bug 5614 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 17 robin.humble+xfce 2009-07-26 16:19:49 CEST
seems to work well. thanks!!!! :-)
Comment 18 xface 2009-07-26 17:22:50 CEST
I have a little trouble decrypting what #15 actually says but it sounds like it probably fits the bill.

When will this hit the streets?

Is there a patch I can pick up and apply to general release 4.6.1 source? I have been putting up with this broken behaviour for too long now and need to get a fix in place.

It sounds like quite a simple modification was applied to resolve this and Gentoo makes it nice and easy to add a patch to the build process.

Assuming this is what we all have been hollerin' for , thanks very much for the fix.
Comment 19 Grant Edwards 2009-07-26 17:42:13 CEST
(In reply to comment #18)

> I have a little trouble decrypting what #15 actually says but
> it sounds like it probably fits the bill.

I couldn't figure it out either.

> When will this hit the streets?
> 
> Is there a patch I can pick up and apply to general release
> 4.6.1 source?
>
> I have been putting up with this broken behaviour for too long
> now and need to get a fix in place.

Here's an ebuild for 4.6.1 with a patch that produces the
previous behavior.

  ftp://ftp.visi.com/users/grante/xfwm4/xfwm4-overlay.tar.bz2

It's not the exact same fix that's been made to the official
source. It's just a reversion of the change that broke things
in the first place.  I'm not sure if in all cases it behaves
like the "new" fix, but I know it behaves like xfwm4 always
used to.

-- 
Grant
Comment 20 xface 2009-07-26 19:13:05 CEST
Salutations fellow gentooer!

brillant , that is one thorn removed from my side. Many thanks for posting the ebuild, saved me a fair bit of messing around.

Now sanity has returned I can get back to doing other things and enjoying xfce as I have for the last few years.

if you have not done so already I suggest you post that link on the gentoo forums, I'm sure there's a lot of xfacers on gentoo that would appreciate it.

best regards.
Comment 21 Grant Edwards 2009-07-27 01:03:59 CEST
> Salutations fellow gentooer!

Greetings to you as well!

> if you have not done so already I suggest you post that link
> on the gentoo forums, I'm sure there's a lot of xfacers on
> gentoo that would appreciate it.

I've posted it to the gentoo mailing list (it had already been
posted to the XFCE mailing list).  If you'd like, you're more
than welcome to post it to the forum as well.  I don't have a
forum login -- I find them rather awkward to use and generally
stick to newsgroups and mailing lists.
Comment 22 Jarno Suni 2009-10-06 07:30:53 CEST
(In reply to comment #15)

> IE, if focus stealing prevention stop a window from having focus, it will be
> placed under the focused one. 

And focus stealing prevention does not prevent the new window from receiving focus, if user does not continue to interact with the currently focused window (to update its timestamp) after an order to open the new window is given, right?

> But if you explicitely set now windows not to
> receive focus, those will be placed on top of the stack as before.

How would you make such a setting?
Comment 23 Jarno Suni 2009-10-10 17:25:01 CEST
(In reply to comment #15)

> What I have now committed in trunk is to place windows behind the focused one
> only those which have been prevented focus by the window manager.
> 
> IE, if focus stealing prevention stop a window from having focus, it will be
> placed under the focused one. But if you explicitely set now windows not to
> receive focus, those will be placed on top of the stack as before.

I suppose Mr Fourdan meant that if you set "new window focus" disabled and you open a window that is not caught by focus stealing prevention, the new window is placed on top.
Comment 24 Jarno Suni 2009-10-15 10:50:56 CEST
This is reported for Xubuntu linux, too:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/xfwm4/+bug/366683
Comment 25 Olivier Fourdan editbugs 2009-10-15 17:03:29 CEST
This is fixed in current git HEAD, closing. FYI Fedora has backported the (trivial) fix in 4.6 too.
Comment 26 Geobert QUACH 2010-06-01 15:35:52 CEST
can the fix of this bug causes bug 6484?

Bug #5479

Reported by:
Grant Edwards
Reported on: 2009-06-18
Last modified on: 2010-06-01
Duplicates (1):
  • 5614 new windows not coming to top of z-order

People

Assignee:
Olivier Fourdan
CC List:
8 users

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